Looking for affordable engines!!

Hi there guys!!
Its been a while I have been searching for an affordable motor from AC to DC for the sim I am building, as I am about to start building my model. I got some windhshield wiper motors but unluckily they are not the same. I see that the AC motors are quite a 'new-comer' to most of the members so its out of the question for me as of yet, until its feasible enough.

So anyway searching and searching I came across this website http://www.robotmarketplace.com and the motors they sell caught my eyes. I humbly ask for someone's opinion on this following motor. http://www.robotmarketplace.com/product ... 03.html.(I tried posting a picture, but I can't figure out how to upload it with my post here. pls help!!)

AME 226-series 12V 325 in-lb LH gearmotor - long shaft
Nominal Voltage 12vdc
RPMs 96 rpm (no load)
Amps at No load 3.4
Amps at Stall 68
Torque (Max) 325 in-lbs or 36.7 Nm
Shaft 11mm dia x 64mm long with flat
Weight 2.7lbs

There are ofcourse, I think, far better motors than this on that website, but the cost approaches that of the SCN5 linear actuators used by some of the fortunate members in the x-sim community.

I apologize for being randomly vague here as I have not presented any clues to how I am planing to rig my structure yet. Hopefully in a few days I may do so.

So for the moment just applying this motor to a hypothetical sim (assuming more like racing 'frex style' with an upper frame supported on U-joint and most of my weight supported on the u-joint column) do you think this could work? Is there anything I should be worrying or looking for while buying this motor?

Your kind reply is most valued and appreciated.
Thank you.

I would say these motors are great for the value. Even the cheaper ones will have a lot of torque for a seatmover setup.
96 rpm is really fast, especially if you only use 150-180° of the servo arm range. Most of your worries will be the power supply and the electronics.

For simplicity, you can put the motors right under the seat and eliminate the long bars in the back.
See: viewtopic.php?p=23635#p23635

Thanks Frakk for your quick reply.My confidence has grown more towards these motors.

Most of your worries will be the power supply and the electronics.-- is it because of the high stall current? or is there anything else I should watch out when driving these motors?

My simulator uses two 35 Nm motor at 24VDC but the manufacturer make it with 12 vdc coils also, each motor use about 150 watt peak in a hard brake or turn.
35 Nm is enought to shake you very strongly , with proper electronics you can feel de road surface, bumps and feel a little fear in a spin

Thanks dhweizel, I admire your own project very much. I think when I finalize I am gonna get about 3 of those motors, for smooth flight sim as well.
I have read a lot about some good wheel chair motors as well, unfortunately they are very costly together with the shipment charges. Also I am looking into marine wiper motors as well. Unfortunately most do not provide enough detail about these type of motors. After that which ever is close to my requirement I am going to select. Right now my money is on AME 226-series motor. Hopefully I can design the eletronics to match it up.

for the AME 226-series at stall P=IV =68*12=816 watt :no: am i right?

take in account that you can trade speed for torque or torque for speed , changing the motor arm or pulley (the lever principle) provided that the motor has enought power to move you timely

what type of sim are you thinking ? a seat mover or a joyrider like?

a seat mover basically, but with the footrest attached to the chair. Actually I am trying to achieve a bit of both. I mean I love to race and also like a bit of flying. I know it sounds weird, but for me its alright that if I didn't get bigger movements like a joyrider, a little bit of pitch and ground effect is alright when flying.
So my initial idea is to have two motors at the back and one in the front , equal distance in a triangle to each other. what do you think?

not really, the mechanical power of a motor is a function of the torque and the speed (a stalled motor has no speed) and regulated by the mechanical contruction of the motor (number of poles) you must look to something like nominal current to make the math.

I think that the three motor config may be a little difficult to set up provided that you use a pivot in the middle (a lot of moving parts that must align properly)
in my oppinion a seat mover is better without a pedal attached to the frame, first your legs are not suspended weight because are on the floor, and second the feel of your foot being pushed to the pedal in a hard brake is in my opinion one of the greatest arguments of a seat mover ... it feel like in the real life. Is true that the pitch movement is no so good in these type of sims.

In the end is a matter of tastes and budgets

Yup for sure the 3 motor set up is not going to be an easy one. I have been thinking about synchronizing the motors in software once I get the mechanical parts right. For now its just a thought.

you are right, it all break downs to taste and budget. We want the best that could be achievable with our limited resources and budgets. Which is also what makes the x-sim community one of a kind. : The most intense and the best DIY place on the planet :

Anyway I m starting to feel guilty, carrying on without giving a clue about how my setup is. Hopefully soon enough I'll come up with some sketches and stuff.

cheers

You are right, that is the theoretical stall power (electrical, not mechanical) dissipated by each motor(closer to ~750W in practice), but the story is not that simple. If you double that, you are looking at ~1500W of power required in a complete stall. In a real life scenario this should NEVER happen for extended periods of time otherwise you melt the windings and probably some components/PCB traces too.

What happens in real life? The DC motors draw their stall current at their initial acceleration, having 0rpm in the first initial moments equals to a stall condition. As it gradually speeds up, current drops. A heavier load will slow the acceleration, hence increasing the time of heavy current draw. In other words, the load on the electronics and the power supply will be very uneven and there will be huge current spikes in the beginning and end of each new movement.

But don't stop there. If you think stall current is bad, reverse current will be much worse. When the motor windings are turning in one direction and you try to drive them in the opposite direction, the current will shoot WAY up. You technically short out a generator in series with your power supply, so you will have ~10V + 12V = ~22V completely shorted through the supply-electronics-dc motor for a moment.

A good controller will take all this into consideration and don't drive in reverse of the rotation, but wait for the armature to stop. Having the ability to brake the motor is also necessary for accurate and fast positioning. Because there will be very short periods of time where you draw very high currents, you still need a power supply that can handle it, otherwise it will just blow a fuse or the OC protection will shut it down. A car battery or even smaller RV/bike batteries can handle these huge spikes without much trouble, given the H-Bridge can handle them as well.

If you are only moving the seat, the motors won't draw nearly as much current as the stall current. I don't think they will reach 30A because the seat will be moving easily by that time. If you increase the load by having the wheel+pedals move with you, current will go up, but I'm sure the motors won't have too much problems with the torque. As dhweizel said, you can easily trade speed with torque and back.

Frakk, that is very informative knowledge, thank you so much for outlining it so clearly. I understand the motors will not reach its maximum just like that. But the mere possibility of that happening in an unlikely situation and all the other factors taken into account, my mind has turned away from it now. Even if I manage a bigger power supply, controlling all those unwanted behavior is quite a serious business and again will cost more.
As I live in a considerably remote part of the world and because of the environmental consideration I would like to stay away from the batteries.
Also the reason I am looking for a reasonable engine with enough torque is that I want a relatively easier root than fixing pulleys, gears and the like, its gonna take time and to find those things here is not very easy.
Although marine parts are not that difficult to get from here, so my next research is on the available marine wiper motors. will let you know when I get my hands on one. I am assuming since boats take a tougher punishment the windshield motors on them might be stronger. I am just assuming right now, I could be very wrong.

I can recommend the use of a unregulated transformer based power supply , simply a big transformer a diode bridge and a couple of capacitors of several thousands microfarad.It has an advantage, in a stall condition drop the voltage limiting the current and strong diodes are cheap so you can handle reverse current in the psu (but the H bridge must support the current also)

A 7 VA transformer power the sim at my house and the performance is comparable to the 30A psu at the office that light the overcurrent led in some situations powering a similar setup, the transformer ends barely warm.

Look to wiper motor of vehicles with big windshields like trucks or bus, the bigger the arm more torque need in the motor

Linear PSU's indeed have a lot of advantages over switching PSU's in this case. What it really comes down to is the controller and the brains behind it. If you can limit the current efficiently and manage to tune everything properly, there is still a lot of room for performance.

Ideally you would want higher voltage components, they will draw less current for the same power produced. 24V is a good middle ground, the real power comes above 50V. I would however advise against anything above 24V for a DIY hobby project for safety reasons.

I don't think there is a big difference between automotive and marine parts as far as power goes, it will depend on the actual model and size.

I don't know your budget, but you might find the Starter Kit from SimXperience to be a good alternative. The actuators will outperform any DC-wiper motor solution available today, at a very reasonable cost, including warranty and unmatched support from them, as well as the community. It has ALL of the electronics you need in a plug-n-play package, including the power supply and an optimized (one of the fastest you can get) USB-RS485 adapter. The only thing you will have to worry about is your frame and the mechanical build. Considering your limited resources, this might be your best choice.
LINK: http://simxperience.com/SimXperiencePro ... fault.aspx

Hi guys,... so basically here is what my initial idea. I have already built the base out of L-angle bar and 1.5 pipe laying around in my home which cost me nothing. will upload a picture of my work soon.

Anyway for the time being, just wanted to present what I have in mind.This is a quick and dirty sketch I made in googlesketchup7 .




Frakk, my budget is simple.. I can't afford those beautiful engines at this time. One day soon I will.
Just a quick question!-- If I want a gear reduction to wiper motor like motors or the AME motor I showed in the previous post , do you know where I can find the parts?..Can I use automotive parts?

Thanks.

Don't worry too much about any more gearing. You add more moving parts, more chance of failure, extra cost.
By changing the length of the servo arm you effectively change the gearing by leverage.

If you decide to go with DC motors, look into this project: maxdamage-s-simulator-2dof-with-dc-gearmotor-t2600.html
So far the most effective electronic solution in my opinion. Put those motors under a super light seat and you are flying.

Hey guys! Finally I am able to get the beautiful SCN5 linear actuator motion starter kit from simexperience.com. I am fed up trying all the alternatives. Every time it was a dead end for me considering the right engine.
Thank you Frakk, I thought about what you said about the motors used by MAXDAMAGE , I will end up spending almost the same as the SCN5, (because of the shipping too ) .you were right!!. Anyway now I am able to get the motion kit from simexperience.
One quick question though, about the power supply. My country's power is 220-240 v. will it be compatible? or do I have to use a converter?

I'm glad you made an educated decision! There are other solutions also, but at the end as I said, it comes down to how much time you want to spend building and researching. With the Starter Kit you can jump straight into building the platform and not worry about anything else.

Yes, the starter kit will work on 110V-240V 50-60Hz AC.
- Operates on U.S or European Voltage