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DCS/ED 3-DOF starting project, need your help !

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by dureiken, Oct 1, 2016.

  1. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    Hi,

    first of all, I would like to thanks all members which take time to answer and to make tutorials, it's really awesome.

    after reading a lot of topics here and other forums, I would like to ask some questions before starting my project (and talking to my wife :p)

    I have no idea of price, I would like to discuss about solutions and after make the choice between quality/perf/price.

    The main use is for DCS planes, and Elite Dangerous. I have no cockpit, just warthog, rudder pedals and Oculus CV1. My weight is 65kgs - 143lbs.

    Here are my first questions :

    1-I would like to start directly with 3DOF project, which is best to choose ? Heave or yaw for the last dof ?

    2-I read on this forum that for VR, the most important is speed and not angle. True ?

    3-what is the most immersive ? G-seat or motion simulator ?

    4-A lot of people use 24V DC motors. I work in hydroelectric factory and we have a lot of industrial AC motors. Could I use them ? is it possible or we can't control them ?

    5-If I use 12V motors, could I use a 1250W ATX power supply to power them ?

    6-How do you manage to cancel simulator movements in Oculus Rift tracker ?

    Many questions are about motors because it seems to be the most expensive part (*3), I don't want to be wrong on it.

    Thanks a lot !
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  2. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Many of your questions go to design choices rather than definitive answers, but perhaps my responses will encourage others to add their views.

    1-I would like to start directly with 3DOF project, which is best to choose ? Heave or yaw for the last dof ?

    That is really a question of design objectives, heave via a traditional 3DOF design would be better for planes and yaw would be better for choppers.

    2-I read on this forum that for VR, the most important is speed and not angle. True ?

    That is certainly my personal opinion.

    3-what is the most immersive ? G-seat or motion simulator ?

    Both have their own benefits, a G-seat can give some sense of sustained Gs while a motion simulator has more effect on the vestibule system. Their use is not mutually exclusive and they can be used together such as @Avenga76's rig and @SeatTime's planned upgrade to his 6DOF rig.

    4-A lot of people use 24V DC motors. I work in hydroelectric factory and we have a lot of industrial AC motors. Could I use them ? is it possible or we can't control them ?

    AC can work fine and would be a good choice for a high powered 3DOF rig for flight simulation, and many commercial 3DOF are AC powered: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/vfds-and-3phase-motors.9/category

    5-If I use 12V motors, could I use a 1250W ATX power supply to power them ?

    Personally I think server or 12V LED PSUs are a much more cost effective option.

    6-How do you manage to cancel simulator movements in Oculus Rift tracker ?

    VectionVR offered a modified LibOVR motion cancellation file for free, which could be compiled with games to provide motion cancelation capabilities, but only 2 ever did. So the practical answer is to mount the Oculus camera on the rig, which works pretty well for flight sims, and some members here are currently experimenting with gyro stabilized gimbal mounts. You can have the Oculus camera off the rig for small axis movement sims when used for fast action, like race simulation, as you won't really notice the need for motion cancellation.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  3. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    Thanks for your answer :

    1- Ok I will go for heave

    4-If I go with AC motor, I will have to buy 3 VFD, I think they are really expansive, isn'it ? DC equivalent is sabertooth ?

    will there be simmer help ? because is only a few people have AC motors, will be hard to have some help.

    6-Good idea to put the camera on the motion simulator :) :)

    Thanks
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    There are others but @speedy is a great help when it comes to AC use.
  5. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    ok :)

    a lot of people use worm drives with 90angle, a 0° angle reductor couldn't be better for mechanical lost ?

    Thanks
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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  7. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    Sorry my english is sometime bad :)

    There's a lot of loss in worm gear, why a lot of simmer use them ?
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    There are different degrees of loss as I said, depending on ratio.

    That said even taking mechanical loss into account powerful DC motors with worm gearboxes are incredibly good value for money as they can produce better potential performance than say SCN linear actuators at a fraction of the cost.
  9. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    ok :) I will start to draw my project on CAD, where is the start point ? :)
  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Do a basic sketch of the 3dof design you would like to build, post it and ask for members to comment.
  11. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    I just started as you said :

    [​IMG]

    It's hard to begin !

    1meter wide for the mobile : 70cm for my seat, and 30cm for hotas and other things.

    Dunno which angle and height for rudders, if you have any advices ?

    edit : I am 185cm height :)

    And after, what about motors? space between them ?

    Thanks
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  12. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    There is a thread on cockpit design dimensions that may be of use: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/sharing-cockpits-dimensions.6789/#post-76077

    On my compact spring assisted 3DOF I have 2 motors at the front and 1 at the rear. I suspect it is about as small as it is practical to go, as the base is 500x500mm and the distance between the 2 front levers is only 535mmm and the rear lever is only 45mm out from the base frame. My HOTAS is mounted outside the connecting rods that go to the motors.

    But the wider the footprint the more leverage, so going bigger than mine is a good idea.

    In terms of your drawing I would suggest turning the motors around 180 degrees and indicate where you plan to connect levers.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    Hi

    I found at work some AC motors with output @46rnd/min, which sounds very good ! MNHL25/2 MTA80K4 (hard to read)

    Could be ok with that ?
    doc : http://www.sermes.fr/medias/produits/Motoreducteurs_HL.pdf

    I think I have to buy variators, which one specially ? what is the use of the reductor if I have a variator ?

    Thanks
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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  15. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, AC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    Yes noorbeast,and others,
    With "my" 1hp AC Inverter Motors and heavy duty gearheads.............I do NOT need the spring assist...........and only using the spline shaft/spline collar to prevent twist.
    Working great now...........

    Tom
    • Informative Informative x 2
  16. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    It seems it will be too hard for me to start with this project, AC motors and variators as just few people have this setup
  17. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    While it is true more members use DC those who do use AC, like @speedy, are very knowledgeable and provide good support for others.
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Thanks @noorbeast ...
    Sorry guys for late reply :oops: ...

    @dureiken ... AC motors are very easy to setup with a very very good final result ... And you have to use both the reducer ( gearbox ) is MECHNICALLY used to lower the motor rated RPM to the desired output low RPM and to maximise the torque ...
    The VFD's (varitors) are responsable for ELECTRICALLY power the AC motors and control thier RPM and direction upon a driveing signals coming from a PID control circuit (Arduino) like we use for all simulators ...
    When using VFD's ... only one additional simple intrfacing circuit would be added to convert the digital control PWM signal into a 0-10v analog signal that a VFD (Volt Frequency Drive) can unerstand ...

    Just don't worry if you come to the electronic part , It is really the easy one ;) .
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  19. dureiken

    dureiken Active Member

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    Hi

    thanks for your replies. I have some new questions, with this kind of 3DOF platform : http://pcshm-simulateurs-homemade.c...-simulateur-de-pilotage-3DOF-moteurs-350w.htm

    1-once max angle is chosen by your balls (dunno the word for "rotule" in french), what does it change for rotations to have a bigger lever ?

    2-I choose to start a move of 15cm (=30cm total), with AC motor 0.75kW, 93rnd/min 64Nm, worm drive

    -> moving on 1/2 round => 0.16seconds and 427N "liftable"
    -> moving sur 1/3 round => 0.11seconds and 370N "liftable"

    I dunno how to say if 0.11s is a good value to have a good VR simulator or not ? 0.16 enough ?

    4-what is the mini service factor I have to choose for my motor ? Retailer said that these motors are really not done for that kind of use, mostly due to heat to extract

    Thanks
  20. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    That is a traditional 3DOF design.

    1. The longer the lever the greater the linear speed, but at the cost of torque, as that is reduced: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/

    2. The general community wisdom is that good motion speed is 150-700mm/s: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/speed-needed-for-good-motion.218/

    Speed for VR depends a bit on the sensitivity of the individual, what is being simulated (aircraft are usually slower motion than race sims), and the design axis movement distance. There is no precise way to define all those in advance, particularly personal sensitivity, so generally it would be a good idea to have some speed headroom, so personally I would aim for 250+mm/sec.

    4. AC motors are powerful and I believe reliable, but @speedy is better qualified to comment on how best to ensure their longevity when used for motion.