VFD's and 3phase Induction motors FAQ corner / pls. Read all first

Hi guys,

Thanks for your great feedback! I really appreciate the opportunity to share thoughts and ideas with you!

But now what? Are we going to test these theories? What type of tests will we need to do? Some say a simulator is possible to do with ac motors and others say they aren't sure while the rest think its a waste of time. Don't you want to push the limits and find out ones and for all? Imagine what we can learn from this.

@speedy and tom: what are the worst case scenarios with using ac motors and vsd's? Perhaps we should create a master list and answer them, what do guys think? You seemed very eager earlier Tom! Want to start?

Hello FarmBoy,

Well gentlemen - I won't be much use to you all - in this area - I do understand the concept, but when it comes to "testing your theories" - I do NOT have the expertise Now!
As an AC/VFD Builder in Progress - I'm hungry for a resolution that everyone of you "heavies in VFD's" can agree that's the very best way "to do it"...

First, to @FarmBoy FYI - there have been and are several professional companies building AC Motion Simulators - MSE / CKAS / etc. - ALL extremely expensive.
When "I" started researching three years ago, primarily for a motion sim for FlightSim, the CKAS was the one AC Platform that I felt I could do a very good job of "mechanically building" the rascal and it
be very workable and SAFE. At that time, I had NO idea and did not find a reference to sim rigs that are being built here with: wiper motors / SCN5's / Big DC Worm Motors - and on and on..............
Well, for "me" it was too late as I had spent two years acquiring the inverter duty motors/gearheads/drawing a plan for building - could not go "back" due to the investment I had already made.
I held off for two years in the "start of the build" because I was scared stiff of the "electronics" to get it going. My good friend here, @yobuddy, responded and sent me a wiring diagram that would
make my ac platform function - Well, due to @yobuddy and his invaluable help - IT was OFF to the Races! Now, FarmBoy, you know my story...other members are aware of my journey.

FROM an end-users prospective:
1. I have found that a very large majority of DIY's have the concept that AC/VFD's, platform designs are, well just CRAP -
"me thinks" that many have looked at the very "docile" CKAS and a few others' in their infancy, without an end-user having the ability to really tweak VFD's, increasing frequency, etc. AND most
of all, their movement was in the very low range of +-4 degrees movement................and that said, came to the CRAP resolution for AC.

2. AC/VFD/Gearheads - all are a very very expensive proposition. I am very fortunate to have purchased very hi-end quality motors and gearheads for 60% LESS cost - through diligently searching,
finding, and purchasing a few pieces at a time.
Again, PRICE vs. END RESULTS - most believe they are just worth it....................I feel that with where THIS forum is right NOW - we have very progressive, hi-energy, high expertise levels - and
some of you "heavy hitters" are saying - WHY NOT - with AC's - and I'm in total agreement.
From all I have read in the past year - there is no doubt that the PRICE vs. END RESULTS will be GREAT!!! and I will have a Motion Sim that will LAST for years due to the heavy duty industrial
grade of my hardware.

Well, FarmBoy & ALL - that's my 2 cents of thought - and it works for me.

Tom

I really appreciate the amount of information that I have found in this thread. I can see myself building an AC platform someday, especially a 6DoF machine

Hello Historiker,
Boy, I am excited since I'm in the building stages of my AC Platform.........this is great.....

BTW - I have posted a topic in the Q&A Section - "4th Degree - Is this feasible" - where I have a concept to take my 3DOF in process and ADD another DOF - Sway -
I ran this concept in the above topic, starting yesterday. Have YET to get a response....IF you have time, would you be kind enough to look at what I have proposed and see if I'm on track"
Would be so helpful.

Tom

I hope you all don’t view my last post as being negative. I want everyone to succeed, not fail. It takes pioneers willing to take a chance to derive greatness! But sometimes I feel that members that don’t know any better may think that everything is good to go when, in actuality, it hasn’t been proven yet! I wouldn’t want to make a guinea pig out of an unsuspecting member that’s all! So if there is something deserving a debate, I’m willing to put it out there for discussion.

Hello BlazinH,
You heard me reference "heavy-hitters" many times before - I DO consider you one due to your knowledge and expertise level.
FYI - I am NOT one of the "unsuspecting" members....that's why I've pulled back some of my useless statements - like GREAT etc.....because I cannot sustain those type of statements with my
VFD and electronics knowledge on the "elementary level"......

I'm going to WAIT until, well "whenever" all of you knowledgeable folks totally agree on ONE agreed upon method to use AC and VFD's......and your absolutely right - Pioneers - and thank goodness
we have quite a few here - In my business, I absolutely don't tolerate an attitude of "that's the way we have always done it"..........just pisses me off - God gave us a good mind - we just need to use it...
My "approach is" - In What Ways Can We!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks,

Tom

Thanks for every one's opinion ... I've showed my 3 phase Ac motors Pyramid simulator " in case that you didn't notice that I did one " and NOT ready to answer any question about it ... and share what ever you like from it ... VFD menu settings, wiring , switches wiring , what ever you like ... that is what I understand from a pioneer attitude ... if some one is talking about that .I've got your point @BlazinH ... you're absolutely right . but at least I've been asking for something ...

Here in the
VFD's and 3phase motors FAQ corner
No one asked for ANY THING ... NOTHING ... Except from @FarmBoy that I found that he is OFF TOPIC and out of simulator concept ... turning this thread into a " three wires " supermarket .

For not asking questions for what you don't know and get a step buy step answers untill you fully understand ... then you'll end up "putting the car in front of the horse "... OK ... Use it On your OWN Risk .

Now you're all interested and complain that you don't know abut it ... VERY FUNNY .
How will I know what you all are interested in ? or need or what you're going to find in your country and you will use ?
Do I look like a sales man to you ? Do I look like the internet information gateway ? that will be open without even knocking ...
I'm putting a related videos to visually explain and to put up wonder points to pop up questions and open subjects to be discussed ...
Still No one asked for ANY THING ... NOTHING .

Upgrading or using a new ideas is done for something that you already understand and done before ... with all my respect I've stated that I found someone to talk to but he didn't listen ... @FarmBoy want to upgrade VFD AC - simulators that he primarily don't understand motion simulation basics using his knowledge in VFDs in the pump field just because he found that we are using/talking VFDs ... it's OK ... but listen and learn first ... then go for what ever you want based on what we all know ...

I'm taking a week off ... I have a flu I don't want to contaminate any one .

Speedy,
We know that you're "under-the-weather" and don't feel well - we hope you recover and get back to the ol' Speedy we know.

With all due respect, I would like to submit the following for your assimilation.

1. At this point in time - YOU, my friend, are the VFD Guru and have very valuable info and offerings for this forum - This is a Given!
2. Very Very Very few of us are into or even interested in AC Motion Control - the pool of information seekers/builders and the "pool of talent" is very slim.
3. Those of us who already use AC / and/or/ building AC motion sims DO NOT have the expertise that you have acquired with your AC Motion Sim
4. A few of the members can talk the electronics language on a level that many of us have NO earthly CLUE as to what you all are even saying - we can only "conceptualize"...
5. We neophytes are thirsty for ways to hook up / adjust / make work / our AC's with VFD's - we conceptually know what they do - but do not know why???
NOT all of us really WANT to know how the clock is made, we just want to tell the time, CORRECTLY.
6. I am confident that FarmBoy was very honest in his endeavors to bring forth a "different" way of interfacing to VFD's/AC Motors/Geards, by-passing some existing, known steps that do WORK and WORK well.
At this juncture, FarmBoy was/is not familiar enough with what is required in Motion Sims, NOT realizing his methodology would not work in "our" arena...But KUDO's to him for at least
bringing it to the table for debate.........MY hats off to your FarmBoy. Thank you.

LASTLY -
I "know" that running my own business for almost 40 years, it "CAN" be real easy for me to get frustrated with my employees, even the long-term ones, when they do not demonstrate
good judgement, make "un-called for mistakes", use the "system", want "someone else do it for them approach", and a multitude of other indiscreations - I WAIT a few minutes, and remind myself,
they DON'T have 40 years in this game nor do they have my expertise level....it then helps me help them - to do the right thing in the future - that way, we ALL are happy.

Speed, my friend - your above thread "came across" like you were "chastising" ALL of us here....the smart ones, the new ones, and you were rather harsh with FarmBoy -
This type of reply makes many want to "pull-back" and not ask anything or submit anything - WITHOUT fear of being brow-beaten for a statement that is not perfectly correct.

I am NOT in a position to judge you nor am I. I am only stating the feelings I had after reading and re-reading your reply. I am going to ASSUME that my friend Speedy is very sick, doesn't feel well,
and "quick on the draw" to write this way.

I hope you get well SOON my friend.

Tom

Hello,

Speedy you are 100% right that i dont have a clue how motion sim works. I studied mechatronics engineering and got my diploma 4 years ago. Building a sim was suppose to be our final project then out of about 30 students only 6 pitched up and then most lost interest and we ended up with some other stupid little project. I have tried to build this on a budget with dc motors, pololu H-Bridge and a PC power supply. Then i blew up my PSU and H-Bridge and realised that it sucks failing and loosing. So you see, 100%, i have a loosing streak thus far when it comes to building simulators.

The stubborn lack of understanding you were talking about there is my inner technician trying to act like an engineer. I'll admit that it felt good for a moment there, but i am just a techy hey.
Building a sim is my dream. I dont just want to be a techy, this can make me a really good one.

Tom, you sound like a great and passionate employer! I can see why you've been self employed for 40 years, hats off!
You have correctly pointed out the two objectives here and perhaps that is what speedy wanted to talk about.
Perhaps he meant that one might get a reader that wants to build something that works and have been tested or another that wants to find out why it is done this way on not that way and if there is another how can they compare the options.

My lack of experience is the reason i am here. You guys can save me and allot of others a great deal of time and money and more importantly teach us why we will save so much.

Cheers

Hello FarmBoy,
Very nice thread and overview - We understand "where you're coming from" - Good information to know more about your background - puts everything on a "personal" basis.

Now that you've been so kind to give your background and your desires - we ALL can move forward as a team, with Speedy being our Mentor.

Speedys' mentoring IS NOT about Tom or FarmBoy - but an overview and understanding into the AC/VFD motion sim world - FOR all here that are in need or interested, BUT to our future
members.......but, thank goodness, you and I are on the receiving end, NOW, of a Method that will work great for us.

FarmBoy - you have a need in AC/VFD - and you can really "understand" the technical terms of what Speedy is saying and meaning in those technical terms.....this is a good thing.

For Tom - I have a need to make my current, in-progress, AC/VFD sim to WORK correctly when the mechanics are finished. I don't have a clue on most of the technical info that's coming
into play - I do understand WHY we must use VFD's etc., and at this point from reading the manual - I'm pretty close to being able to wire the power to them - not at the point of connecting
feed-back wiring to the pcb's or whatever. - So, primarily Speedy & yobuddy, are holding my hands and walking me through, taking baby steps... When my sim IS working properly, I know I
will-have learned many many things in the "technical side" of the arena.....SO, with that said, this is where I am at now and with my needs.

I will word hard to search out hardware, pass it by you guys for approval BEFORE I sink hundreds of dollars into VFD's - I will ASK questions about issues that I don't understand, etc.

In summary, we have a "Personal Side" BASELINE - that we can work from and with.
Let's move ahead -
Have a blessed one folks,

Tom

Hi,

Respectfully, there remain two objectives here. This is a good thread for an ac sim that is fully functional with a great team to back it up. Every which way i see it, things here gets too complicated for me. This has gone from engineering to emotional to personal. I can appreciate your baseline, but chances for my future replies to escalate things here is also possible.
You have other needs than me.
I want to fiddle around, learn, make mistakes and learn from them. Or ask why its done like this and not that? This type of thinking does not fit in here and it shouldn't, it will just confuse or frustrate other readers.
This was nice. What a fun filled weekend!

Thanks allot!

Cheers

FarmBoy,
I "could" let it get personal, but "I" and "I" alone choose to absolutely NOT let it become personal -
I am going to "stay" positive and move ahead - It's water over the dam - yesterdays' news.

IMHO, Our needs are identical - I know nothing, but have a need, which is being fulfilled -
You have a good background, have a need, and want to learn more about motion simulators - you just can understand much more of the technical information
that's being disseminated here. You're going to take your technical background and "learn" how to apply it to motion!!!

We have a good instructor in @speedy - as he knows VFD's and has an actual ac sim working quite well.......... we cannot "lose" with his expertise...........
If we want to move forward, we need Speedy. IF Speedy chooses to no longer instruct and participate, FOR whatever reason, I personally respect his choice - but "me" don't think that will happen.

IF, by unfortunate circumstances, gosh-forbid, that Speedy leaves us - there are others that we can get help from.

I would suggest to "not abandon ship yet" - let's see what happens and decide after that. To me, a business man, this is "technical business" - let's ALL of US leave the "drama out of it".

Submitted most respectfully,

Tom

Please Just get a paper and write down any question ... then search first then post it here to help .
motion control with stepper motors .


see also this thread ...
Understanding Motion Simulation Basics ...

A Speed control example using the Modbus ... Expensive but at the industrial stander requirements .

The VFD is a big programable H-Bridge ...

Thanks Speedy,
Very informative videos - Motor control is one BIG Topic with all the ways one can do it, based on specific needs. Had no clue.

Have a blessed one,

Tom

Hello Speedy and folks,
I am trying to "understand" VFD Sensorless - From what I can find out, "sensorless" is more accurate and faster in error correction - is this a true fact???
In my build of the ac platform - is going with the VFD Sensorless worth the extra 75.00 x 3 of them???

Thanks,

Tom

Found here: http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1062
mP means micro processor.

The calibration of this drive is best explained in the second vid here:
Understanding Motion Simulator Basics

Accuracy: Depends on your mechanical structure, the way you are measuring the positions to set the calibration and error correction and also what parameters the drive provides to adjust these.
Faster: Because the position resides in memory doesn't always make it faster, usually one will still have to set the interval times between PID error corrections. Sensorless means you won't need a feedback sensor, that in itself is a big advantage and as long as your sim structure never change - very repeatable.

Can you please put all of your options together on a single reply with some details like prices, etc?

I've made an unusual request to the suppliers of the drive to find out about -100% and reverse motion. Just need to find this out. This will either be good news, bad news but always a learning curve.

Cheers

From the same page http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1062

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090121014603AA81Tuf

edit: No more options for the internal feed back in any VFD type than that ...

Good morning Speedy & FarmBoy,
THANKS to each of you for the great information/videos/explanations! - Believe it or not??, I'm starting to understand the inner workings of the VFD and the invaluable ROLE it plays in motor control / error correction etc. For me, a very good basic understanding is all I need, AND that's exactly what you've give this ol' guy. KUDO's

@speedy - Thank you - from what I "read" in your above thread, (still trying to conceptually understand - AND I will when I read it several more times) -
The sensorless VFD will have advantages for my build - AS after completion of my sim platform, It will NOT change, but be a constant in "repeatability".

Below are the links to the VFD's I'm looking at - with pricing.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...S3_Drive_Units_(230_-z-_460_VAC_SLV)/GS3-21P0
$242.00 US each - free shipping - x3 for my platform.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ts_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC)/GS2-21P0
$177.00 US each - free shipping - x3 for my platform.

Thank you gentlemen for great information and instruction. It's a little challenging to 100% understand it all - BUT, I do understand the concept and sequences - which is 100% better than last week.

You ALL have a blessed one,

Tom

PS - Speedy, sure hope you are recovering from your flu -